How about the fact that 73% of doctors support the public option? Do you think the doctors are trying to deceive you too?

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE58F3VJ20090916

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Here’s some information on why the IBD poll claiming doctors are against Obama’s plan isn’t worth the paper they mailed it on:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/ibdtipp-doctors-poll-is-not-trustworthy.html

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admin Reply:
September 16th, 2009 at 20:17

Jonathan,

You know, I agree with the way the President’s selling his plan.

In fact, I agree with you!

I’m sure doctors’ support for a program which will pay them less, work them more, restrict their treatments for their patients are just CRAZY in love for this plan.

And anyone who disagrees with us is dangerous and lying.

Keep on believin’, man!

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I like how you do it – use mockery in the face of actual facts. So I guess the New England Journal of Medicine is another pawn in Obama’s massive conspiracy? Why don’t you talk to a few doctors, find out what a public option actually is, and see if they like it?

Perhaps they just want to spend their time actually practicing medicine, instead of fighting with insurance companies who are refusing to pay out? Maybe they just want to be able to actually take home their own pay, instead of paying a full-time employee to handle insurance claims?

Or maybe, just maybe, doctors actually care about their patients and want them to be covered! If you read that study (which I’m sure you haven’t read) they you’ll see that most doctors think that everyone deserves treatment. And I know for a fact that most doctors would want to treat anyone who came to their door (if the hospitals didn’t have other people to stop them). By having a plan that makes insurance affordable and makes sure everyone gets covered, the doctors would actually be able to treat everyone AND get paid for it. That’s probably why they support the public option.

Go ahead though, don’t read the study, ignore the facts, and mock me again.

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admin Reply:
September 16th, 2009 at 23:47

Jonathan,

First, I admire how you put words in my mouth and make me a conspiracy theorist all in just your second sentence!

Smooth!

And there are hospitals who are keeping doctors from treating patients in the USA? Really? Why are you withholding this information?

Come on! Where’s your public spirit, Jonathan? Be a Hero! Turn those pricks in!

You cite the NEJM and then drop a link to 538–which BTW, a debate on whether this even supports your point or not could break out.

You’re right: doctor’s won’t be fighting with the insurance companies over anything…because when it’s the government in charge, they’ll be told and that will be the end of that. How many arguments you ever win with IRS or Motor Vehicles?

Just like Obama, you’re not a doctor, but you play one in your comments.

And that is truly mock-able.

So glad to have you aboard!

Together, Jonathan, we can both get what we want.

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You’re a conspiracy theorist because you completely disregarded the results of a scientific poll conducted by a reputable, unbiased organization that undergoes consistent peer review. Apparently, the thoughts in your own head are more important than any actual “data” that might be out there.

Here’s the New England Journal of Medicine paper right here, with full poll results:

http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1785&query=home

“And there are hospitals who are keeping doctors from treating patients in the USA? Really? Why are you withholding this information?”

Yes, that should be obvious to you. Make an appointment with a doctor in a hospital. Sign-in at the front desk. They will ask to see your insurance. If you say, “I have no insurance to pay for this”, then see what happens. I know this for a fact, because an insurance company once canceled my coverage without telling me, and when I went in for the second appointment (they thought my card was still valid the first time) they wouldn’t let me see the doctor unless I paid cash.

However, the same survey I just linked states that over 70% of physicians believe that it is every physicians responsibility to care for the uninsured and underinsured. So they would be willing to see the patients, if the hospitals would let them. Of course, the hospitals can’t go out of business, so their policy makes sense too.

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Jonathan Reply:
September 17th, 2009 at 11:21

I’m sorry – that was only the poll that shows that doctors want to serve the uninsured and underinsured. Here’s the other NEJM poll that shows they support the public option:

http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790&query=home

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admin Reply:
September 17th, 2009 at 13:07

Jonathan,

You’re a conspiracy theorist because you completely disregarded the results of a scientific poll conducted by a reputable, unbiased organization that undergoes consistent peer review. Apparently, the thoughts in your own head are more important than any actual “data” that might be out there.

I am a conspiracy theorist because I disregard a poll? OK, if that the rules you’re playing by, I buy in.

Here’s some polling data. And, it’s scientific!

Poll: Is the Country Populated by Kooks?
* 42% believe that the federal government knew about John Kennedy’s assassination before it happened and did nothing.
* 80% think that fuel companies conspire to keep gas prices high.
* 62% believe that the Federal Government IGNORED warnings about 9/11.

Do you disagree with any of the above polling data? Are you a conspiracy theorist because you disagree?

One of the thoughts in my own head is that according to your NEJM link, this poll’s conclusions were based on the answers of 2130 physicians (paragraph 6).

Gee, that doesn’t sound like a lot of doctors?!? How many doctors do you suppose are in the USA?

According to Google Answers which got its data from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics,
in 2003 (latest data I could find, you may do better if you think it matters)….there were 301,270 physicians in the USA.

So less than a fraction of 1% of US doctors answer this poll and you’re ready to not only get behind it–you’re willing to label anyone who disagrees a conspiracy theorist?

Are you beginning to get the idea why your argument is mock-able?
I suspect if you post at any other sites that are not rabidly-pro-Obama Care, and trot this line of reasoning out…Well, it won’t be the last time it’s mocked.

You do get credit, however, as you did bring up one item that made complete sense:
Of course, the hospitals can’t go out of business, so their policy makes sense too.

So, we’re making progress.
Maybe you can do some research on how government intervention into the health care insurance industry currently makes it MORE expensive.
–Such as restricting competition across state lines;
–such as requiring many unnecessary procedures;
–such as forcing people into coverages they don’t want in order to get any coverage.

Then ask yourself, “Gee, why wouldn’t the government fix that first?”
You may even come to the conclusion that much of what makes health care insurance increasingly expensive today might be because of government interference.

You might even be tempted to see what was said about Medicare and Medicaid back in the ’60s and before they were enacted, what the programs’ opponents said and how they were portrayed in the media.

Are there any similarities to the way the current health care debate is being waged?

Thanks for continuing the discussion, Jonathan.

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First, yes, I agree with your poll. The poll that you presented says what some Americans think. I believe that some Americans think those things. Does that mean that those things are true? Of course not.

Secondly, if the 2,200 doctors polled are a random sample, then that sample is more than large enough to represent the 700,000 doctors in America. Scientifically, it’s actually about twice as large as necessary to get data with a decently-small margin of error. But since you even brought up that number, it makes me think that you don’t know much about polling or statistics. I’d be happy to explain, if you want to learn.

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I have another question for you:

Every developed country that universal health care, except for us.
Every developed country spends far less than we do on health care.
The United States has one of the lowest life-expectancies, highest child mortality rates, and highest under-5 mortality rates among developed countries, and a fairly high maternal mortality rate.
The United States ranks #37 in the World Health Organization’s ranking of health care systems

So…how exactly does that show that government interference makes health care more expensive?

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admin Reply:
September 17th, 2009 at 14:30

Jonathan,

Leaving aside a trashing of WHO, your statistics are confusing your argument.

Your giving me statistics on health care, not health care cost.

Your statistics have nothing to do with health care costs, but you’re using them to support your health care cost arguments.

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I think that your issue is that your not reading the whole comments. I pointed out that all of those countries have government mandates for universal health care, and I gave you statistics that showed that their health care results are better than ours in many respects, and yet we already spend FAR MORE MONEY than any of them. So why do you think that government involvement always leads to higher costs?

Take a look at this chart – it might help:

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/images/figure-1.gif

Of course, that’s from 2003, and I hope you’re aware that our health care costs have been rising at an especially high rate for the last six years. So we spend even more now, over 16% of our GDP.

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